One year at a big Thanksgiving dinner, I sat next to the poet Michel Deguy; many of his friends in Paris were met for instance when playing tennis. 95For me, Williams mostly writes by the word. I just sat in here and wrote about Allen and the international aspect of his work. But I met himI met everybodyaround 1968. When I read. Ive written so much in my life that Ive become able to control it all; and when it feels like Im letting go, Im not. You have a poem called Cherokee (2006). NOTLEY, Alice. Instagram, Recent books continue to be at least somewhat character centered. Her mother was Polish and her father Irish. 11It was a collaboration of sorts, though I generally do not collaborate; I really hate it. The couple returned to Chicago for a brief period of time after their year in England before moving to New York City in 1976. In this midcareer lyric, the poet plays with the idea of citizenship in the everyday, exploring how, as poets and pedestrians, family members and lovers, people always exist somewhere betweenIandwe. Request a transcript here. I knew him in New York, where I saw him from time to time; but after I moved here, he sought me out. 116AN: I was there. where you and Eileen Myles read together must count among the great New York School moments still on record. AN: I wouldnt be able to take the journey if I couldnt hear the poem thats all based on folk songs and not those lines, but I was writing In the Pines while I was doing the Hepatitis C treatment, where the drugs would depress you, but once a week you would have to take a shot which, they didnt tell you, would get you high for a half hour before you got sick. 78When we moved to Needles, there had been a cry house which was a place where the Mojaves would go to cry when somebody died, and there was now this pile of boards: my mother was completely fascinated by the cry house, thus she would use that phrase; one of the first stories I wrote on route to the University of Iowas Writers Workshop for an MFA as a prose writer was about Needles, concerning a white man who goes to the cry house to cry. vol. There was a piece of paper on my door that said: in your building there were two Jewish children who were taken to the camps; we are going to have a ceremony for the unveiling of a plaque on the rue de Chabrol. In the serious, reflective poem, Your Dailiness (1971), you mention finally understanding Willem de Koonings painting. The sense of something escaping is well illustrated by your poem, Where Leftover Misery Goes, among others. That piece is from a postcard of a painting of Notre-Dame and evil spirits flying out of it. Alice Notley, Untitled, 1998. As in I the People, the speaker in this masterpiece questions the relationship between person and nation and between private and publicbut this time in the face of great personal loss. DR: Also Im coming back often to that poem, In this Paradise, about the food-stamp office. There were various famous people now that were in it like Susie Timmons. As Notley writes in The Prophet (1981): One is you & all this & two & yet. The yet is where poetry begins. DR: Well I think of Williams as a kind of Calder mobile waiting to enter into movement. 8DR: Such natural presences are important. We know how inane the decision was that everybody would have a car, completely destroying the planet. I think its just all out there. She distrusts change. Indeed, you are often spoken about as an engaged poet, like your late husband, Doug Oliver. Notley. When I read The Descent of Alette I am tempted to treat the quotation marks between phrases as breath-markers like on a musical score. Especially in the way that lucid means shining and bright. I would like some help. Whereupon, she just totally melted. New York: American Poets Project Library of America, 2004. I felt I knew what the cry house was, and had ideas about it: I knew how to use regional things. Produced by Curtis Fox. AN: Well, I broke it. He could write any time he wanted to; Im like that too. Watch Video Here. It always felt to me like I was enacting ideas that visual artists had normally, that I was figuring it out. Interview with Barbara Barg, Rose Lesniak, and Tim Milk. DR: Right, thats a strong, colonizing streak in Western culture. The first workshop that I taught was a crucial one for that generation actually. MYLES, Eileen. In 2015, she was awarded the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize. I had it for a long time and it started to break. 99AN: Frank caught how great Pictures from Breughel and Other Poems (1962) was. AN: Probably, I wouldnt dance, but Anne might. I was wondering if your poems that address completely despicable people might be a case of carrying the enemy on the shoulder. Ron Padgett. 1976 saw Notley and Berrigan moving their family permanently to New York City's Lower East Side, where they'd live together until Berrigan's death in 1983. Particularly the middle one. There are different paces and reading styles possible; the performance can be different each time. Recent poems about pregnancy, birth, and being a mother. AN: Well, you learn a lot from teaching, at the beginning. Somewhere, I have a photo of my father with a snake in his mouth and every year that he did it, he got a little tattoo of a star on his hand; and my mother danced the year she was pregnant with me the Hopi Corn Maidens Dance, and she taught me the song later, and my father taught me the chant for the Apache Dog Dance. I certainly wouldve used anything to keep from being sent. New York: Columbia Records, 1989. Alice Notleys influence on a later generation of poets exploring the subject of motherhood is hard to overstate. For some 45 years, she has striven against the forces that stifle idiosyncrasy. Ive written so much in my life that Ive become able to control it all; and when it feels like Im letting go, Im not. In a lecture titled Thinking and Poetry, Notley underscores the deep difficulty of following ones own direction: I find being a poet something that must start again all the time; Im Just like I did. The jacket copy attempts to sketch the books plot: the protagonist, named One, is suddenly within the Glyph. focusing on the foot; and hes probably also aware of the foot when hes doing the short stanzas. (2006). Like the Hollywood marriage in this poem, Notley and Berrigans creative partnership was loving, mutually enriching, and, as she shows us here, a bit magical. Notleys struggle for solace and understanding is all the more moving for its contradictions, confusions, and stutters. Orpheus is a stand-in for poetry. Was she of an Irish sort? STEIN, Gertrude. The Indians said: No, we wont do it, but we will send people to teach them to you. The tribes then would send the people to Prescott, and every year they would teach these businessmen dances. He taught some writing: one writing class, and one civilization and literature class. Notley claims it was boring and returned to Iowa City where she met the poet Ted Berrigan who began as an instructor at the school that fall. I certainly wouldve used anything to keep from being sent. ALICE NOTLEY has been hailed as one of the United States's greatest living poets.She is the author of more than 25 books of poetry and the recipient of numerous awards, including, most recently . In response, another woman informs: "'he . Twitter, Alice. There are others of course, but could you begin by speaking around those atmospheres? 47DR: Its incredible because, I just re-read Nadja recently. Ultimately, I am expressing a desire to run into the desert and get some space, the space everybody needs around themselves and unfortunately are not getting. She received a BA from Barnard College in 1967, and an MFA from the the Writers' Workshop at the University of Iowa in 1969. 100DR: What do you think of Gertrude Stein and of the kind of permutations she does: almost like rolling things around in your mouth? The Paris Review Interviews vol. So I grew up as friends with Native Americans, and imbued with certain things; I was also attuned to what had happened, without knowing fully, because there was a kind of sadness among the Mojaves in my town, along with immense curiosity and interest among some Anglos. Perpetually strapped for cash, the two took on whatever small jobs they could to support the family. The incentives to engage in selfish, destructive action are as strong as they always have been. If we compare them with painting, they work like the zips in Newmans painting. Alice Notley, Passeurs de la littrature des tats-Unis en France(1)/ Lhritage de Michel Foucault aux tats-Unis, City Ruins in American War Narratives/ Womens Sites of Struggles for Self-Determination. DR: The conversation has veered far from Needles, which I hope we will return to, as we evoke various social spaces that seep into the poems. turn right, that dream building cutglass window in door. Notleys ceaseless productivity hints at a method counter to the heavy emphasis on, and even fetishization of, craft that forms the cornerstone of poetrys increasing professionalization. My book, (1992) features Robert Desnos and uses patterns from the. Descent would grow to be Notley's most widely read and taught collection after its reprinting by Penguin in 1996. New York: Penguin, 2007. Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy and Cookie Statement and Your California Privacy Rights. Death is for a moment, beauty is for all time, about World War II and people being away at the war. Among the most powerful moments in her work are the ones marked by her teaching poetry workshops in New York and her self-publishing the book. Mysteries of Small Houses (1998) won the Los Angeles Times Book Prize, and her collection Disobedience (2001) was awarded the Griffin International Poetry Prize. Doug [Oliver] had died, and it was 2001. I use the collages to go on without thinking with words. I would give a task often based on traditional forms, or I would get an idea for a subject; and sometimes I used Kenneths books, because he was writing all those books then about teaching in nursing homes and to groups of small children. There's an unfinishedness. In a poem from the seventies, Notley mocks the downtown sensibility of the time with an older male poets rant: No women poets are any / good, if you want it / Straight, because they dont handle money.. There was pleasure in working with that discovery. Entitled The Speak Angel Series, her latest collection of new material is forthcoming from . The Indians said: No, we wont do it, but we will send people to teach them to you. The tribes then would send the people to Prescott, and every year they would teach these businessmen dances. Sonnet 49DR: In that book, the heroine is a true medium who can look at someones face and know things, and at the end she is taken off to the asylum; Andr Breton then rails for two pages about how misguided asylums are, which makes your collage seem to be broaching the question of clairvoyance in terms of surrealistic, poetic culture. Notley also thanks Tom Clark who would go on to re-publish the sonnet cycle in his anthology All Stars. Its flowing world is populated by characters who seem to personify indeterminate pronouns (like a shaman named Qui) and theres a general defiance of set categories: and if one who renews refuses / gender? 124I also have a vinyl record, its like one of those jazz albums. In 1999, Notley was both a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and a winner of the Los Angeles Times Book Prize for Poetry. . AN: We were children then, basically. 50AN: Well possiblyI take in a lot of things that I dont know about, or that I dont remember. She describes it as an immense act of rebellion against dominant social forces, against the fragmented forms of modern poetry, against the way a poem was supposed to look according to both past and contemporary practice. The narrator, Alette, finds herself in a feminist epic, on a subway, traveling deeper and deeper in the tunnels, into an underworld filled with caves and otherworldly characters. I knew that I was also doing something like what they used to talk about in college: the taking of two disjunctive things then the jamming of them together: that was part of our critical education at the time; in fact, John Ashbery would have had it too, probably, though he was twenty years older than I was. Alice Notley was born in Bisbee, Arizona in 1945 and grew up in Needles, California in the Mojave Desert. That was one of the first things Ted [Berrigan] told me about John: he kept a list of titles, like Civilization and Its Discontents, then he would decide, Ah, that would be a great title for a poem, and then later he would check his list and pull that title out. Notley gave birth to her and Berrigan's second child, Edmund Berrigan, at Colchester Hospital in 1974. Left-wing Radicalism in the United States: A Foreign Creed? Flowery mantle. Homeric sacrifice? noise of darkness fear of, darkness now mantle of innocence King of his death now Home, Ive come home He said, Ive come home They were sacrificed for, nothing, for distant instants of thought All for your thinking, Illustration courtesy of Sophie Herxheimer, The Goddess Who Created This Passing World. But it goes Of asphodel, that greeny flower I come my sweet to sing. Its a long line that can take in short lines, which I did in Alette. And that other one was something I just picked up from the sidewalk. DR: Yes, the 1971 poem about writing an earlier poem of the same title, a characteristically clever poetic ploy. Est construido en ambas orillas del ro Nore. , CA, c.1985, courtesy of the artist, re-photographed by Daesong Kim. 37DR: Historically, painting is central to cultural New York and to New York poetry. 97AN: He is focusing on the foot; and hes probably also aware of the foot when hes doing the short stanzas. [14] Several poems from her 2007 collection In the Pines were set to music by the Canadian indie pop band AroarA for their 2014 Polaris Music Prize-nominated 2013 EP In the Pines[15] and in Fall 2014, a conference celebrating Notley's work was held at the Bay Area Public School in Oakland, California. Paris: Gallimard, Bibliothque de La Pliade, 1988, p. 643-753. Mystery of Small Houses. 18DR: The conversation has veered far from Needles, which I hope we will return to, as we evoke various social spaces that seep into the poems. Over the course of her career, Alice Notley has achieved something astounding: each of her nearly 30 books is different from the last one yet unmistakably hers. The poem is addressed, at least in part, to Berrigan, who died in 1983, and the speaker longs to make sense of a country without him in it. AN: No, never: when I address enemies, I am not carrying them on my shoulder; Im being intensely annoyed by them. Its from Homer. (1945) a couple of years ago because she was being bashed in the States again: they were underlining her Vichy connections in order to make her into a kind of villain, without any regard for how difficult it must have been: a lesbian living with another lesbian, in her sixties, in a country that wasnt her own country, Jewish, thus a prime candidate for the camps. In reframing and re-empowing Dido and Medea, she is writing a meditation on destruction. Which is something that John Ashbery would probably have agreed with, in a way. NOTLEY, Alice. How, in your view, did humanity get itself in such a predicament? In 1992, Notley moved to Paris with her second husband, the British poet and novelist Douglas Oliver (19372000), whom she met while living in England in 1974. Oakland: O Books, 1995. The words at night the states serve as a refrain that marks the beginning of each stanza. Notley's early work laid both formal and theoretical groundwork for several generations of poets; she is considered a pioneering voice on topics like motherhood and domestic life. BRETON, Andr. In the spring of 1976, Notley and her family returned to New York, and her husband Ted fell ill with hepatitis, a disease he suffered from until his death in 1983. DR: Its incredible because, I just re-read. Alice Notley: It's an artifact and it's kind of torn up, called "lost lace." It's supposed to look like it . 82AN: Its not a dance; its a pattern of sounds: its in my voice which I think is sometimes better than singing, when I say the poems. Though I didnt know I was being influenced by him again when I was doing. DR: Where leftover misery goes Can a poem be like a dance? AN: I dont remember that poem, Syringa, but John tends to pick things out: he used to keep lists of his titles and then he would decide to write the poem of that title. AN: Yes and a certain way of being cocky, which was very Irish, you know, a certain way of being witty, sort of a blunt kind of wittiness. My parents were from Arizona. Aeneas founded a city, Rome. Shehad two sons with him, the poets Edmund and Anselm Berrigan. Alice Notley on her life with Ted Berrigan. 67My poem The Prophet (1981) is based on his poem Some General Instructions (1971). Why hurry them along? In her earlier work, Notley often incorporated the speech of people around her, particularly her children (as in her masterpiece January). AN: Well I grew up in the Southwest. , Fifth edition, vol.2. To come back to this one, I read it as a kind of. Over the course of her career, Alice Notley has achieved something astounding: each of her nearly 30 books is different from the last one yet unmistakably hers. It seemed that people like Joe Brainard were doing important, high-art collages and we could follow along without any pretention to be creating masterpieces. Grin, laugh unbecomingLiving at the bottom of the water mayhave been obvious all the time. In this Poem Talk podcast devoted to this poem, it is read as a sort of non-political political poem, bringing the personal into the public. 58AN: I actually listened to Monteverdi to get the cadences that were before The Descent of Alette: particularly in White Phosphorus (1988) and at the end of Beginning with a Stain (1987). Also, just before leaving New York, she realized the ambition of writing a feminist epic in a book-length poem, The Descent of Alette (1996). Pictures from Breughel and Other Poems and The Desert Music and Other Poems (1954): that book is fantastic; he caught the new line, which he refers to in one of his letters. David Reckford: Among the physical, cultural, and intellectual environments that have formed your particular sensitivity, there seems to be several strong and contrasting places. Logic Nina Baym. But her writing exerts intense attraction. Ive always taken up that ambient context in my poems. The conjunctions are the most mysterious places in Johns work. Alice Notley continues to live in Paris and makes frequent trips to the U.S. to give readings and lectures. Alice Notley (born November 8, 1945) is an American poet. 110AN: I wouldnt be able to take the journey if I couldnt hear the poem thats all based on folk songs and not those lines, but I was writing In the Pines while I was doing the Hepatitis C treatment, where the drugs would depress you, but once a week you would have to take a shot which, they didnt tell you, would get you high for a half hour before you got sick. In 1972, Notley married Berrigan and the two moved to Chicago where Berrigan had been given Ed Dorn's newly vacated teaching position at Northeastern Illinois University. Notley began the magazine to connect with preexisting poet friends and meet new writers on both coasts while living in the midwest. I do write down my dreams, though I havent been dreaming much lately; but Ive been doing that for years. I started noticing my dreams before I met Ted [Berrigan], but he used his dreams, and I just started doing it more after I was with him; then, after he died I did it even more. He spent two years in India, which changed everything about him. Early on, I understood that was something you could enjoy doing out of folk music. The material on this site may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, cached or otherwise used, except with the prior written permission of Cond Nast. He gave everybody permission to be funny. Made a halo around our syntax and ourselves as we laughed. 48AN: I read it when I was about twenty-three, in English. URL: http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/13862; DOI: https://doi.org/10.4000/transatlantica.13862, Universit Paris Nanterre and cole nationale suprieure des beaux-arts de Paris, Creative Commons - Attribution - Pas d'Utilisation Commerciale - Pas de Modification 4.0 International - CC BY-NC-ND 4.0, https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/, Voir la notice dans le catalogue OpenEdition, Plan du site Mentions lgales et Crdits Liens Flux de syndication, Politique de confidentialit Gestion des cookies, Nous adhrons OpenEdition Journals dit avec Lodel Accs rserv, You will be redirected to OpenEdition Search. By Alice Notley. I made this in about 2005. Request a transcript here. Then generations of people had to have to deal with the bad behavior and figure out how to talk about it. Then he writes poetry in the variable foot which is a huge influence on my later work. Produced by Curtis Fox. nature. [3] Notley and Berrigan spent the several months between Long Island and Chicago in Bolinas, California, which is where Berrigan officially printed 165 Meeting House Lane. What her husband George Burns called her illogical logic. White Phosphorus (1988) and Beginning with a Stain (1987). [1] [2] The poem is notable for Notley's extensive use of quotation marks throughout, which she has described as part of her attempt to reclaim the narrative function. This interview took place in Alice Notleys apartment in Paris, in June 2018. There was a piece of paper on my door that said: in your building there were two Jewish children who were taken to the camps; we are going to have a ceremony for the unveiling of a plaque on the rue de Chabrol. I am tempted to treat the quotation marks between phrases as breath-markers like on a musical score. DR: Frank OHara was strongly influenced by Williams, and you in turn take a lot from OHara. At that stage, Allen Ginsberg, a really fine person, was extremely supportive. DR: Your humor, in poems like The Prophet (which asks hilariously, Does a hippopotamus get the shakes?) is slightly less well known than your readiness to tackle political subjects. She was 88had just got back upand I was so inspired by how she got back up that I wrote that poem; I also wrote Blinding the White Horse in Front of Me (2016) basically in the same spurt of energy. And with popularity comes influence: one thinks of the sunny romanticism and Instagram-readiness of Having a Coke with You (the more abstract, difficult side of OHaras work has yet to gain influencer status). I think I know how to do things with my voice that are entirely musical. That unusual, horizontal format was probably done to fit the long lines in. I was wondering about your thoughts on Native Americans. Courtesy of Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim, April 2018. White Phosphorus 74AN: Well, you learn a lot from teaching, at the beginning. (1979), in talking about Marianne Moore, they say: Pound writes with the phrase, Williams writes with the line, H.D writes with the image, Wallace Stevens and Gertrude Stein write with the word, but Marianne Moore writes with the entire stanza, and I was just wondering if there was a unit that you use? The Goddess who created this passing world, Said Let there be lightbulbs & liquefaction, Life spilled out onto the street, colors whirled, Toys and rose The zoo body zigzags. That gives you a sense of the sound. When expanded it provides a list of search options that will switch the search inputs to match the current selection. The others were like me, though Hispanic and black. Notley came to prominence as a member of the second generation of the New York School of poetryalthough she has always denied being involved with the New York School or any specific movement in general. interview (2015) she says that she learned from John Ashbery never to complete a thought, which is a rich idea. 33DR: I think for the reader those part-words can function to foreground an elsewhere. At the same moment, at Saint Marks, Bernadette Mayer, Anne Waldman, and I taught poetry workshops. DR: Was the teaching of poetry workshops something that connected you to Kenneth Koch? Need a transcript Alice Notley has become one of Americas greatest living poets. Poetry itself can be thought of as that which comes from afar. 66AN: I started to be quite influenced by him at that point, and I think I influenced him in the writing of the book New Addresses: Poems, published in 2000. 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